Digital Nomad Cafe Podcast | Online Business | Blogging & Remote Work

EP48- Building A Copywriting Business with Francis Nayan

Learn how to Get Clients As a Freelance Copywriter

Hello and welcome back. If this is your first time joining then, welcome. This podcast is for digital entrepreneurs carving out their slice of the online economy. To download my free guide on starting a business online, head over to digitalnomadcafe.com/start.

Today’s guest is Francis Nayan, born in Manila, raised in Memphis, and currently living in Budapest! Francis is an email copywriter for 6-figure coaches who want to reach 7-figures with engaging, personal copy, and his C.A.S.H.E Method of Email Marketing. 

Over the years, he has helped businesses grow from being another ‘hay needle in a haystack’ to mammoth money-makers with cult-like followings by creating story-based copy and customized email marketing strategies making their customers feel like they’re friends for life.

Topics We Discuss:

  • How to get clients online.
  • How to use LinkedIn to get more clients.
  • The importance of being consistent in your outreach in the initial stages of your business.

Adam Finan: Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Digital Nomad Cafe Podcast. Today’s guest is Francis Nayan who is the founder of Stories & Copy, a freelance email copywriting business for six figure coaches. Francis, welcome to the show.

 Francis Nayan: Hey there, Adam.

Adam Finan: How are you?

Francis Nayan: I’m doing really great. I’m doing really great. Just another day in paradise here in Budapest.

Adam Finan: You’re joining in from Budapest?

Francis Nayan: Yeah, yeah. Here I am. It’s mid summer here, having a great time and of COVID times, but, yeah, happy to meet you. And hopefully, gonna give some awesome insight to your audience.

 Adam Finan: It’s a really interesting niche that you’re in. I love it and I’m excited to talk about it. So you’re a freelance email copywriter and you would partner with agencies and also do your own work. So can we just wind it back a little bit about how you get into freelancing online? But also, why did your niche into email market rather than doing a typical, like, I’ll be a blog writer or something like that?

Francis Nayan: Yeah, for sure. I know a lot of copywriters and content writers, everybody kind of started off really broad. I’m pretty much no different. My journey started about two and a half years ago, or so, when I was actually teaching in a kindergarten here in Budapest. And I was about a year and a half into my work when I kind of started realising that I wanted to do something more. I wanted more freedom, I wanted to make my money, and I wanted to travel more. Because I found myself more tied down to work, trying to prepare lessons and show up to meetings and everything like this. I love the kids, and I love teaching, but I wanted to do something else. And I think somehow the computers and robots knew what I was thinking because then I would then start getting these advertisements on how to make money online.

Adam Finan: It started reading your thoughts. Your phone can do that now. You don’t even need to talk about it. It’ll just start reading your thoughts.

Francis Nayan: Oh, for sure, for sure. I think I’m probably gonna get even more advertisements right now, since I’m blaring into my laptop right now. But–

 Adam Finan: Yeah, we’re going to talk about it. Next thing you know there will be gravity blankets.

Francis Nayan: Exactly, exactly. But that’s how it started, man. I got these advertisements for being an SEO consultant or coaching online, or being a writer or drop shipping or something. So I kind of tried everything, to be honest. I mean, I tried the coaching thing. I did a course, I learned about SEO, bought a bunch of courses on like, probably a dozen different things. And I actually did not really have my one thing yet until I had some friends here in Budapest, who already had their online business and they asked me as a favour if I could write some of their blogs on their website, because they knew that I did some journalism and some writing back home in the States. So I said, “Yeah, sure. I’ll do it.” And then eventually, they were like, “You’re pretty good at this. So why don’t you actually get paid for it? You should learn how to write a copy.” And I was like, I have no idea what that is. I was thinking copywriting is copyright law. And I was like, “I don’t have time to be a lawyer or anything like this or anything like that.” But I did Google it. I thought it was pretty interesting. And then, as fortune would have it, two weeks later, I was at a meetup here in Budapest, I met this young German guy named Finn, who I pretty much had to credit everything that I’ve gone through to him because he’s the one who inspired me. I met him. He was a young guy. I said, “What are you doing that allows you to travel? You’re here in Budapest for six weeks and you’re about to go someplace else. What do you do?” And he said, “I’m a copywriter.” And then this is like the second time I heard about writing a copy.

Adam Finan: Light bulbs are going off. All right, this is a sign from somewhere. Let’s look into this because it sounds interesting.

Francis Nayan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. He was kind of even spookier because like I had friends here who actually switched to another company and they were working for some mobile phone company, I think, Verizon or something. And they were copywriters there, just in house. And so here I am googling everything and trying to figure it out. And then I just decided one day, I was like, I’m just going to be a copywriter. I think this is interesting. I’m going to try it out. And that’s just kind of how the journey started. It definitely had a lot of bumps and bruises and confusion along the way. But that was the beginning.

 Adam Finan: One of the hardest parts when anybody is starting out is exactly that. It’s like, what’s the thing I can do? You were transferring from being a teacher and I mean, the episode is going to be on for you, which is with Christopher Rush who works at off2class.com and they’re online ESL teaching. That’s what he does. He’s a freelance online teacher teaching English as a foreign language. And it was because he didn’t want to do all that stuff in class. I tell you, people who are teachers have such transferable skills like creating lesson plans, and doing all that sort of stuff. I know some teachers. Man, they know how to work and they know how to be organised way more than most normal people. So if you can take those skills and transfer them to your freelance business, your online business, you’re miles ahead of most people because you already have great organisation, great planning, and you’re obviously well educated. So it’s the transferable skills and like you say, just finding the thing that’s right for you. If you want to do dropshipping, you need money. You gotta have money for ads, you know what I mean? And you gotta have money to spend on the wrong idea. The same with other things. If you want to do affiliate marketing, you’re playing the long game most cases. If you want to do it through SEO, it’s going to take months. If you want to do it through paid media and you have no experience, you’re going to have to burn a hole in your pocket first until you figure it out. So going with a service is one of the best ways to get started making money online. And for you, it was great that you were able to find something that you knew people who were interested in so hopefully you could bounce ideas off them. But also, that you’re interested in. You have to have a genuine curiosity, I think. That really helps.

 Francis Nayan: Yeah 100%. I mean, when I first started out, I was really an opportunist. I went straight to Upwork and pretty much applied to anything that said content writing and copywriting just because I wanted to get my feet wet. I wanted to see what It’s like to be paid for writing. And I remember my first ever job offer and the first project that I actually made money from was like this 500 word blog posts and I think the industry was like IT or something, which is funny because I know nothing about IT. And It took me forever to write these 500 word blog posts and it only was $5. That’s how much I earned. But I still remember the first time I got that PayPal notification that said I earned $5 from this company and I was like, ‘This is amazing! I’m so excited for this! This is so cool. I actually have a business and I’m actually a freelance writer. I can actually say that.’ I mean, I think it’s just opened up an entire world. I’m so grateful for it.

Adam Finan: For sure, man. It’s important, I think, to remember that feeling, too, because as you progress, things can become a little bit the same thing. You can be like, ‘Yeah, I got another client, whatever.’ You can get this work, but at the start, when I think back to when I was in Australia working in construction, I just wanted to work online. I went on a very similar route. I met somebody, his name is Johnny Ward and he has a blog called onestepforward.com and Johnny is a very successful travel blogger. He’s been to every country in the world. I met him. He was campervanning around New Zealand. I followed his blog and I saw he was in Queenstown. I arranged, I cooked them dinner, him and Anthony Middleton. I basically cooked them dinner, invited them up, and stopped up for a couple of hours. We got to talking. They were making serious money online doing SEO and I kinda was like, “Well I can write. I’ll write for you.” I have no clue about writing and I was also writing I think, at that time, Chris Ducker is his name, so he’s doing a bit of freelance writing for him. That was it. It was $10, it was 500 words. It was as much as you could do. It was like, okay proof of concept. But be careful what you wish for because all of a sudden you could be doing 40 articles a week, 50 articles a week at that lower rate and you’re kind of pigeon holed in in your earnings.

Francis Nayan: Yeah. And I think that’s definitely something that most freelance writers go through. I know for sure. I did for a while. I think at least my first six months to a year, I was definitely being underpaid, being overworked. And I’m not sure why that happens. I think I was just excited. I think I should be and anyone would be. But then I think the moment you realise that’s happening, then it really is like your eyes open even more to possibilities.

 Adam Finan: I think it’s important to don’t look at it as a bad thing. I don’t look at it as a bad thing. I came to think of it as like, that was my apprenticeship, my proof of content. And also, could I make it as a freelance writer, could I figure out all the stuff about WordPress, could I do all that filling in the SEO plugins? Yeah, I learned a ton and somebody paid me for it and then either they pay more money, which in most cases, maybe that initial client won’t because you agree to deal with them this much for this much content. So I need to go into sales mode. So this is what I’d like to talk about next because this is definitely an important transition. So you started off at the lower end of the rates on Upwork. So how did you then transition? What was the next step towards finding a better paying client? You just stay on Upwork? Did you go back to your friends with agencies? Did you pitch, cold pitch? What does it look like?

Francis Nayan: I actually started niching down. So I realised that I didn’t want to write these big massive blog posts or write articles. I really wanted to solely focus on writing copy. And it just so happens that I put ‘copywriter’ on my Instagram page. And actually, a parent from the school I was working at actually found my page and he sent me a message and said, “Hey, my company is looking for a copywriter. Would you mind applying?” and I said, “Sure.” And it was actually for a position as a social media copywriter for like this full time contact karate league. And long story short, it was a really awesome experience and everything. I learned so much about marketing and networking and everything. But then I started realising that I wanted to focus more on smaller copies. So this is an email copy, which is what I’m in now. Focusing on writing 300-500 word emails, very story based. And I was able to raise my rates because then I started niching down even more. So now I have email. Then I kind of thought about who I want to work with. And in this case, it would be coaches and ecommerce. And then, it’s still difficult because I didn’t have that many resources but then I started cold pitching to coaches on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram and saying, “Hey, I’m a new freelance email copywriter. I want to work with coaches. Can I write a few emails for free work testimonials?” just to really build authority and some really good Reference experience that way when I could actually start charging more than I had proof of how good my service actually was. That’s kind of how it started. I mean it kind of has built up a lot within the past few years, especially within the last few months.And I think that’s the main thing is making sure that your skills are good and that If you’re good, then you’re going to have really great clients. And they’ll somehow somehow find you. They all get references. You’ll meet people at events and then you’ll start networking with people who you want to work with and who will pay you well.

Adam Finan: There’s so much we said as a freelancer and as a service provider for referral based business. I know it feels old school, like it’s an offline thing, but it’s not. It’s very much true for the online as well. I know so many people who were, even as we spoke, we know a lot of similar people. I’ve interviewed Daniel Budai from Budai media on the podcast. You know him. He’s in Budapest as well. We know a lot of the similar people. Cronos Agency Joshua, I met him at affiliate world last year and we’ve done some work with his agency which is an email marketing agency for e-commerce stores. So all of a sudden, you start to build, just like the old saying, your net. Your network is your net worth. And when those people are looking for help, they kind of have a map in their head and they’re like, “Oh, Adam does this. Or Daniel does that. Or Francis does the copyright.” Whatever way it is. Definitely connecting and showing up. And obviously, in the world we live in now, all of the events are off for a while. What that means is you just got to double down and show up online. You know what I mean? Where are the groups that’s happening? Where are the masterminds that’s happening? Where can you pitch in and add value and help people? I love how you’ve niched down. When you look at your homepage, ironically, because you’re a copywriter so your ‘about me’, just basically that first paragraph, it tells exactly who your ideal clients are. You know exactly who you want. And if I was somebody looking for an email copywriter, when I read your copy, it’s like, ‘Ah, you’re the guy.’ I think it’s really well done. So what does it look like now? You’re about two and a half years. You’ve left teaching. So you left the United States. Did you go to live in Budapest initially? Was that what you did? And then you work there and now you decide to stay there and just work online?

Francis Nayan: Actually, I live in Budapest now as you mentioned, and I’ve been here for four years. But previously, I actually lived in Barcelona, Spain. So I did the whole ESL teaching kind of route for like my first two years. And my whole goal was to live in a new country for the next five years. I was in Spain, and then moved to Hungary and I think I had an offer to go to Hong Kong. I was thinking about Southeast Asia. But in 2015, I got the opportunity to teach in this primary school in Barcelona and I absolutely loved it. And it was an amazing experience, I met a lot of incredible people there. But I had this goal of teaching and living in a new country every five years. And then I applied to work in the school in Hungary and I just couldn’t say no to it and I just had an incredible first year, met some amazing people, got to travel a lot. I really enjoyed my job. And then I just decided to stay just because I fell in love with the place. I mean, it’s a bustling city. It’s incredibly fun. There’s people from everywhere, all over the world. And I just kind of fell in love with the place and just decided to stay.

Adam Finan: It’s interesting. It’s especially fresh in my mind after interviewing Christopher Rush in the previous episode. It’s like you really went the traditional ESL teacher route which is, I get to experience this too. I know a lot of people who do that. They want to go and live in Asia or Vietnam or wherever, Spain, and they want to teach English as a foreign language. Now, that’s all online if you want it to be. You don’t necessarily have to do it. You can teach. I guess, after speaking, it’s about 80% that American teaching Chinese children on the internet and then the other 20% is largely like business English. You know what I mean? In the online space that he’s familiar with, to the marketplaces like, he’s saying that’s kind of how that world operates. When you work, let’s say, online as an ESL teacher, then you have that freedom to travel, it doesn’t matter if you’re in Budapest, Barcelona, or back home in Tennessee. You have an online profile. He lived for two years in an RV teaching how to Starbucks online and travelling around America. That was his story. But when you go, like you work in a school, look, I know some teachers who are far away, somewhere in Dubai, somewhere over in Scotland. When you go, you can’t go anywhere. You have to stay there. Your hours are quite long and you’re not necessarily paid super well for it. So the world of teaching has evolved into, especially even now with the Coronavirus, and everybody’s teaching online. It’s become so normalised whereas before it was largely, let’s say like the big markets like China and places like where they have a large population of people who want to learn English ideally online because it’s been normalised for them.

Francis Nayan: Definitely. Especially with the recent times, of course people are still teaching English online, but I absolutely love seeing how people are just teaching so many other skills online to help people who want to have their own online business and work remotely. And for me, that’s really inspiring. I’ve had some friends who are also copywriters who are teaching people how to write copy, how to be a freelancer, how to get clients through social media, or even just digging into their hobbies and interests to buy a skill that they can use to work remotely. And I find that super inspirational. I think it’s really really, really awesome and I really wish I had that opportunity as well because I dove into everything as I mentioned before. I absolutely love it. But to have this kind of guidance and to have podcasts like this, I think it’s just super valuable.

Adam Finan: All decisions made and all paths taken led you to right here to where you are now. And the sort of life that you have now, which ultimately is you live in a cool city that you want to live in, you are completely online. Sweet.

Francis Nayan: Yeah, no complaints. I wouldn’t trade this for the world. I mean, I’m really grateful for this. I mean, just to think that two years ago, I was really just trying to figure out what to do. I realised I wasn’t happy with my current situation. And as you mentioned, live in an amazing city, work with some amazing people and get to work and talk to people like you. How cool?

Adam Finan: Nice, man. So look, I want to get in a little bit and talk a little bit about the strategy side of things and what it is you do. With regards to writing email marketing and creating email sequences and stuff like that, your niche, you’ve said is coaches. Six figure coaches who want to reach seven figures. Will engage in personal copy and your purpose method of marketing. So can you talk to me a little bit about like, if I was listening to this, and I wanted to work on maybe my welcome series, how would I go about creating an emotional story driven email? Have you got some guidance or some tips for somebody who wanted to do it?

Francis Nayan: Definitely. To create a very emotion driven story based email sequence, the best thing that I like to do is to really just look at your entire story. Look at your life. Look at the reason why you’re even a coach and what inspires you every day. And I’ve been lucky enough to work with a lot of different coaches, a lot of different people from different backgrounds and I’m just inspired by everything they’ve went through and inspired by why they’re doing what they’re doing. And just by digging in to your why and why you want to inspire your certain prospect or why you make this programme or course or the piece of content, then that alone can do a whole lot in making you more unique, makes you stand apart from your competitors. It’s very difficult for a lot of people just because they will call upon a website or email sequence or a piece of content. They tend to stay safe and the messaging and what makes them unique and what makes them different. And I think the moment that a coach can move past that and really just express themselves authentically, then it’s really powerful. I mean it’s similar to how we spoke about earlier, niching down on the people I want to work with. When you’re able to create that story, then you are able to attract and work with people who you really work with too just because they resonate with your story.

Adam Finan: Also, I would imagine to a certain degree, you can create a system and a process around it because ultimately, all these people do the same thing. Be it serving different markets. One could be a LinkedIn coach, one could be a Facebook ads coach, one could be how to start your own agency coach. But the systems and processes that you walk them through will be quite similar. Whereas if you were going from I’m doing copyright for an email marketing sequence and I’m doing copywriting for a supplement brand and I’m doing it for a blogger who makes money online or something. If you’re going from different things and you kind of need to reset and go back to the start every time. Whereas if you’re working with similar clients repetitively, it becomes a bit more systematised for yourself in your processes. 

Francis Nayan: Yeah, it can be. Definitely. For me, it’s really important to really get to know my client and really everything about them, Their family life, where they like to hang out, what they like to do outside of work, just so I can differentiate their message from their competitors. And that whole process is really fun for me. I guess the way I like to do my work is not necessarily to have a new client every week, but to really get to know the people I work with, just so we can work together well on understanding how we work together, but then how we can scale their business the way they want to. For me, It’s super rewarding. I’ve met so many amazing people on this journey and there’s so many more.

Adam Finan: That’s a big part of it, I think. You meet so many cool people who are interested in the same things as you. That’s a large part of why I started this podcast because I missed the buzz of going to coffee shops over in Thailand and co-work in spaces and you’d meet all these people. You’d be sitting down and saying, “What do you do?” “I’m a Facebook ads expert.” Or “I’m on Google Ads.” I had some interesting conversations learning from different people. I’m very interested in what you’re doing. Copywriting is something that is very important. No matter what it is that you’re doing, any element of online business, there’s an element of copywriting to it. Whether that’s your website, whether that’s your email, whatever that’s your social media, and especially your sales pages. So copywriting is definitely an important skill that I think that every marketer, whether they realise it or not, kind of need to learn or at least the core elements of it along the way.

Francis Nayan: Yeah. I think copywriting is one of those skills that every marketer should have. Whether you want to call yourself a copywriter or not, even if you’re a media buyer or you’re a coach yourself or you’re a CMO of a company, I think having some kind of copywriting tops and understanding what good copy is, is crucial for any business. Because you can have the world’s greatest product, service team, but if you don’t have that messaging about direct response copy that sells your product or service, then you’re kind of SOL there. You’re kind of stuck and you’re not reaching the people you want to. And I think that’s where a lot of businesses can go down. 

Adam Finan: Yeah, so the messaging is super important for everybody, like you’re saying, because it’s all the different ways in which people will interact with you and your brand. And also, when you’re working with clients, would you just do the emails or would you do the website copy and the social media as well? Is it kind of like a package? Can you really do one without the other? How does it look? 

Francis Nayan: I focused about 80% of my work through email copy, but I do offer packages. They’re quite custom packages. So I wouldn’t say there’s a set price for any kind of service. I typically like to get on a call with my prospect and then just see what’s needed and give suggestions on what they think they should have more or improved, and then come back with a proposal on prices and things like this, because everything can be really different. They might come to me and ask for better email copy, but then I might audit their email sequences and see that their deliverability is atrocious or their sales page is missing certain parts of what a good copy really needs. It’s all about that initial audit and trying to see what they need and what I can bring to them.

Adam Finan: For sure, man. Speaking of nosy, it’s a bit more seasoned, like you’re saying, two and a half years in, you have had a number of clients, what works now for you in terms of getting new clients and getting new business.

Francis Nayan: The best thing that works for me right now is really just networking. And I’ve been lucky enough to work with some really awesome people and really maintain these relationships with them and grow them even more as the time goes on and just reconnect with them as much as I can. I think one of the best things is one of my first clients I’ve ever had is this fitness coach named Becky from Florida. And she was one of the clients in which I was kind of underpaying myself but then as time goes on, he still hits me up asking for an email sequence or a sales page, or an audit here and there. And she’s referred more work to me and because my work has gotten better over time, if I feel like sending a proposal out to a potential client, I have this really awesome samples that they can look at and they can see who I’ve worked with and that’s like a form of social proof, just seeing who you’ve worked with. Because of that, I kind of stopped sitting down on a Friday and just cold messaging everyone that I could. He was like on my LinkedIn contacts list, and now I’m really focused on certain clients. It’s really saved a lot of time for me and that’s the best way I do it.

Adam Finan: For sure man. It’s really important what you said. And this is a big thing with freelancing. If you want to be a freelancer, a successful freelancer and have your online business and your workbook full. If you’re not working on clients’ work, you need to be pitching. It’s a key element. People are scared to say it. People are scared because people fear rejection and getting told no. It’s like an in-built thing into a lot of people and it’s kind of like a muscle you have to work. The more people who say no to you, the less you care about it. Before you had enough business to fill your plate, what you didn’t fill, you were pitching. You’re going on LinkedIn, you were cold messaging people, and you were trying to drum up that business. So I think it’s really important to emphasise what you just said there because I think it was kind of said casually but it’s like, that’s a really big part of it. And it’s probably why you do so well. Also, LinkedIn is so overlooked by people. It’s unbelievable to me. I get so much work from LinkedIn. That’s one of our primary methods. Because if you cold email people, nobody sees it. But you can cold message people on LinkedIn or connect with them or whatever, get the LinkedIn Sales Navigator, and you’re in anybody’s inbox, like anybody. So LinkedIn as a platform for generating business is huge and having, like you said, on a Friday morning I sit down and I cold message. You had a set time to sit down and send these pitches. I think like Francis, maybe you’re underestimating how important that was, but for you, maybe it was second nature, but like, that’s a really key part of I think why you were successful, if I’m going to be honest.

Francis Nayan: Yeah, I would agree. I think you just nailed it on the head there. I think for a long time, I was just sitting down and it became like second nature. I really did keep fairly good at it and I think that’s something that every freelancer goes through. It is a bit scary because you’re sending a cold email or cold message. But then the more you do it, the more you realise what works. And for me, I realise what worked is actually going through LinkedIn because as you said, in an email, they could actually miss your email or they could just have a pool of people sending proposals or pitches to them, but I’m LinkedIn, at least they see your face.

Adam Finan: Yeah, for sure. And they look at your profile, which I mean as a Copywriter, I would hope you have a well written LinkedIn Copy.

 Francis Nayan: I think it needs some improvements, to be honest with you. Now that I’m thinking about it.

 Adam Finan: You’ll have a couple of weeks before this episode goes live. We’ll make sure. But it’s a place. I mean, not just freelancers but business in general. It’s a B2B platform. LinkedIn is huge, and I’m a huge advocate for it. And it’s so overlooked by people, I think, that it’s madness. But anyways, I think that was a really important thing that you said. And then from that, now you’re in a position where it’s more about, like you mentioned, it’s relationship management. It’s like you have people who refer you business so you don’t need to be on LinkedIn every Friday and messaging people because either you have a steady portfolio of clients or you have people referring to your business. Yes, if you wanted to go on and pitch, you could. But there’s also the maintaining of that relationship because you might meet somebody at an event, you hit it off, you had a great time, you could refer each other’s business, then you just go back to your own side of the world. You don’t see each other or whatever. So it’s important to just maintain that relationship and be able to call every now and then or a couple of messages or whatever. I think that It’s really important because otherwise, you kind of fade off into the ether.

Francis Nayan: Yeah, exactly. And relationship building has been my favourite way of lead generation and it’s almost eliminated like a sales call for me. Just because over time, as you said, I’ll send a few messages here and there to someone I met a few weeks ago or a few months ago, maybe even get on a call and not even sell anything, maybe just to catch up, it’s amazing. I think even recently, I’ve been getting calls from LinkedIn, and I think they actually expect me to get on some type of sales call but then at the end, it’s more like, “How are things going? I saw you went on a vacation. How was that?” And then at the end, I actually had one coach asked me, “Aren’t you going to pitch me something?” And I said, “Actually no, I just wanted to say hi and meet you and to show you that I’m not just like another profile on LinkedIn. Plus, I’m a little booked up right now.” 

Adam Finan: Yeah. So you can’t have me. But then they’re like, “But I want you now.”

Francis Nayan: Yeah, I know. That’s a nice little trick there for anyone listening. Just seem a little more busy than you actually are. But I think relationship building is amazing. Relationship building and just doing really great work and just focusing on those two things.

It’s the skill and the craft too. You have to be good at your craft, obviously, in order to be fully booked up. But I love what you’re saying there. Yeah, it’s like, “No. I’m too busy. You can join the waitlist. Maybe I’ll work with you in three months. I know we’re getting close to time here now, but I’m just curious about this. Have you ever thought of building a team, building a little team of copywriters? As you get more successful, obviously, as a freelancer, you only have so many hours to work so you keep increasing your rates or you build a team who you trust and rely on and who can work with. What model are you thinking about now moving forward? Is it to stay as a freelancer or would you like to build your own little copywriting thing?

Francis Nayan: I actually ran a small agency, the email marketing side with the coaches. So I had myself as the writer and kind of the strategist and then I had a junior copywriter and a software assistant. I have my own VA and everything like that. I really liked it, but then I realised I was doing a lot more managing than I was writing. And that was an amazing lesson for me because you’ve mentioned some of our friends, some our mutual friends held their agency owners. And for me, I realised that I just loved writing. And I love talking about writing. So I have thought about instead of going full agency, why not just take on one or two Junior copywriters and teach them how to write copy like I do. How to tell stories, how to tease, how to create awesome CTAs, give the resources on how to write a great lead or something like that. And of course, it’s gonna help me take some time off of my hands and maybe even take on some more clients. I think that in the future, that’s definitely something that I’ll be looking into and I think I’m actually already talking to a few people, low key, I think relationship building. I think they’re relationship-building me right now, now that I think about it.

Adam Finan: They’re doing the you on you.

Francis Nayan: I know. I know. The secret is out, I guess. But I think I’m going to take them on and teach them a few things and hopefully help them grow their freelance careers.

Adam Finan: You have an impact. It’s a really nice feeling when you can do that for people. I love it when I get those messages. People listened to certain episodes and they went and took action. It’s like you’re saying that chance meeting you had with somebody similar to myself, it can be a meeting. It could be listening to something, somebody could be listening to this and be like, “That’s it. I don’t want to be a teacher anymore. I don’t want to be whatever anymore. I want to get into freelance. I want to get into copywriting. I could do this.” And then they go off and they do it like you. I think that’s really important when you can have that sort of impact and people get to live the life that they want with a bit more freedom in it and stuff like that.

Francis Nayan: Yeah, 100%. I think that’s the goal at the end of the day. It’s just one of the best things with my work is knowing that the things I write, it’s helping people and similar to you with this podcast, hopefully, going to help someone else too when they listen to this and start their journey as well.

Adam Finan: Sure, man. Francis, thank you for joining me today. Where can people find you if they want to connect with you online?

Francis Nayan: They can find me at storiesandcopy.com. They can join my email list. I write to my list two to three times a week, trying to go every day. It’s where I give off a lot of tips on copywriting, marketing and how to get more freelance work. So find me on there. Love to hear from you all soon. 

Adam Finan: Nice one. I’ll make sure there’s a link to your LinkedIn as well.

Francis Nayan: Perfect. Thank you so much.

Adam Finan: Thanks to all the listeners for tuning in. Take care.

Francis Nayan: Cheers.

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