EP41: Digital Nomad Travel & Business Adventures with Sam Kern

Preview:

“I think we think about Digital Nomadism as being all about travel. But for me, it’s really about freedom. It’s the freedom to pursue your curiosity. And I just think that as a society, as a culture, we need to recreate the space in our lives to be able to pursue our curiosity to discover the things that light us up and then pursue them.”

Adam Finan: Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Digital Nomad Cafe Podcast. I’m your host, Adam Finan and today’s guest is Sam Kern from radicallydifferentpodcast.com. Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Kern: It’s great to be here, Adam.

Adam Finan: Sam, you run a podcast, Radically Different Podcast, which you’re really an advocate for remote work, digital nomad, online business and all the things we promote here and speak about, the sort of stuff that I like to interview guests on. So can you tell me a little bit more about yourself and how you got into the online game?

Sam Kern: Yeah, totally. I graduated from college two years ago. And at that time, I had no interest in plugging in from the 9-5 career path. And so I ended up going on a trip to Vietnam with friends. I spent three weeks there, backpacking around. I started to meet digital nomads. And after three weeks, he went back to the US to start his real job and I decided to stay. And basically, I had studied software engineering in college, and so I figured I’d be able to find a remote gig. So I went on Upwork. Within two weeks, I found my first clients, and I started working 15 hours a week, basically a weekly check in. So it was just like this unreal level of freedom that I was experiencing for the first time.

Adam Finan: Probably not what you’re led to expect when you’re in college. You know what I mean? From a software engineering point of view, I guess we’re probably painting a picture of 45-50 hours a week in some office in Montana.

Sam Kern: Totally. For my whole life, I’ve been a straight A’s student, really checking the boxes. And I thrived in that system. But this was the first time in my life where I was free to really wander and explore and follow my curiosity without a deadline, and really had the location flexibility and the financial flexibility to do it.

Adam Finan: I guess you also had a skill set. I mean, that’s a huge part of it, too, isn’t it? You had a software engineering degree, and then you had the, I guess, the cleverness to take a look online. Perhaps you met people who were doing that. Is that what happened? Did you meet people and you’ve seen that they were doing it while you’re just on your fun travelling adventure? Or did you set off on the adventure with the intention of making a living online?

Sam Kern: Totally. I really do. Part of the ethos of my podcast, Radically Different, is this idea that exposure to people who are doing things differently is always the first step. Kind of expanding your awareness of possibilities and then also actually doing because then you see that it’s possible. So for me, that’s what the podcast is about. But yeah, exactly. That’s what happened. I went off to Southeast Asia. I was in Vietnam. Kind of had my mind blown in Vietnam. Foreigners were there teaching English and being like, crazy because right now, I think English teachers are the highest paid professions per hour in the country, which is pretty nuts. And so seeing that. And then after I was in Vietnam, I was kind of asking, where should I go if I want to have co working spaces and feel really comfortable. I was missing the sort of artistic scene that I feel like Vietnam, at least what I was seeing, kind of lacks. And people said, “Go to Chiang Mai.” I hadn’t even heard of Chiang Mai at that point. But I listened to them. I went to Chiang Mai. Sure enough, I showed up and there was this digital nomad Mecca. So I was thinking about coliving space and I was just meeting people and they were showing me how to do it. And I got some advice from some people about how to pitch myself and how to create a proposal. 

I also had a lot of experience with startups in college. The first client I found was someone who is wanting to build a mobile app for his Startup and I was also able to sort of pitch myself in the shoes of like, “I’ve been where you’ve been before. I know what you’re looking for. You’re looking for a reliable developer, someone who understands your vision. Not just caring about just building the product, but also can help you think about the strategy of launching this thing.” And so I think you really appreciated that and that helped me stand out from the crowd. So yeah, that’s something I’ve definitely– especially when you’re hiring someone online remotely, there’s so much trust involved. And if you can really show the person I understand what you’re trying to do here. I really get how I can help you and how I can provide value. I think that was the thing that really clinched it. So that’s how I was able to find a gig so quickly.

Adam Finan: Especially as a new freelancer on one of those marketplaces. I mean, it can be difficult when you’re just starting out in those marketplaces.

Sam Kern: Oh, yeah.

Adam Finan: Because people ultimately filter. I’m guilty of this. I do it all the time. I’ll filter by hours worked, rate. People go in there with a straight intention to filter so when you’re brand new, you just have to put in that extra effort. Because when your profile is built, you have that social proof that you’re good for the job and you can be trusted. But when you’re brand new to a freelancer platform, like you’re saying, go that extra mile tailoring the proposal to how you can solve that person’s problem can really be the difference and get you those jobs.

Sam Kern: Totally. And I didn’t have a lot of experience. I worked one summer. I had a few internships. I’ve worked on a mobile app for a while, but more of the CEO roles, not building everything. I didn’t really have any experience freelancing. So I just look for projects where it was clear like, “Okay, I know what you’re trying to do here.” And I did a very, very tailored proposal. So that was kind of my–

Adam Finan: That was your angle and then like you’re saying, you weren’t looking to work 60 hours a week. You’re living in Vietnam, the cost of living is fairly cheaper. In Chiang Mai, at that point, sorry. Chiang Mai is cheap. Go on Airbnb and find a lovely room for 400 quid a month. Chiang Mai is super cheap. I lived there. The cost of living is cheap. A software engineer can command a higher fee. You’re not on the bottom of the barrel rate.

Sam Kern: Exactly.

Adam Finan: As a qualified software engineer, you have the ability to charge a higher rate and have Western clients. Like you’re saying, your clients could be in the USA and Australia where people are being paid $60, $80, $50 per hour for all sorts of jobs. So that puts you in a good position to work part time and then work on your own stuff on the side or just enjoy.

Sam Kern: And that’s the other thing, Adam. Because I was in Chiang Mai and you’re surrounded by people who actually do that. I met a lot of people in Chiang Mai for multiple months just to learn something new. Two of my friends were there just to learn machine learning. That’s what they were doing. Because your runway just goes so much longer. The other thing I did too is I price– Initially, my rate was $30 an hour, which for a software engineer, especially freelancing, it’s not that much compared to how much you could ask for in the US. So I priced low, and I really targeted it on my proposals very specific to their needs.

Adam Finan: Upwork then take your 20% off you too. So you’re actually $24 an hour. Not a fan of that personally. 20% is a bit much. But at the end of the day, they found a niche and the markets and they solved a big problem for people. And I’m definitely a fan of the Fiverr at the minute, to be honest with you because Fiverr is just a bit different. Gig economy versus the hourly thing. So I guess it depends on what you’re looking for. Upwork, obviously is for the sort of work you’re talking about with software engineers, these longer term projects. But shorter very specific things, Fiverr, I have found, is the way to go. So you were in Chiang Mai. How long did you stick around? Why did you leave?

Sam Kern: So I was in Chiang Mai for about four months. Really, for me, this was sort of a bit of an awakening because suddenly I had this 15 hour week, part time remote job, and the level of experience of the freedom that I was experiencing was unprecedented. So I was renting a motorcycle. I was cruising around northern Thailand. I went to a forest monastery and did meditation. I actually went to Koh Tao to do my diver certification and I worked eight hours on the ship using a Wi Fi hotspot on the way there. It was just this realization of like, wow, this is incredible. And the other thing I did is I started this podcast, Radically Different. I started it just as I got to Southeast Asia and the intention was to basically use it as a way of following my curiosity and interviewing people who are living in a radically different way. Because I want to have conversations with people and see how they are doing it. And so I recorded a whole season of interviews there in Chiang Mai and in other parts of Southeast Asia. And then I eventually left Chiang Mai to come back To the US for Christmas to be with my family. And then at that time, I actually decided to shift gears and go to Medellin, Colombia because I’ve heard great things about that. So I went there. I spent another four months living in Medellin. Awesome experience. Learning salsa, speaking Spanish and I was producing and editing this podcast then finally released that season. The podcast, Radically Different, at least the first season, was really this sort of mixture of long form interviews like we’re doing now. But also what’s called narrative journalism, which is kind of like the NPR style podcast where interviews sort of interlaced with narrative, like narration. So it took a lot of time to kind of get good at that because I don’t. 

Adam Finan: Yeah, even then. I’m not sure if you’re aware of the podcast called the Blind Boy podcast which is the number one podcast in Ireland forever. He’s just so good. But the style of podcast that he does, it’s just him. And everything that he does from the ambience to the storytelling to his heartaches, it’s so well done and it’s all unique and uniquely him. I guess if you can create podcast content like that narrative, that creative expression, it can be really good. Interview podcasts are a different kettle of fish. This is me and you sharing a story, sharing tips. But those solo podcast episodes, those narrative ones, they definitely take a lot more work. You need to consider a lot of factors and do plenty of research before you record and release them.

Sam Kern: Totally, Adam. But what I found is that it’s an enormous amount of work. I found a few things. One is that it is an enormous amount of work. This is insane but I spent the first episode I ever did, which I wasn’t able to publish for legal reasons, I spent like 70 hours editing. I was tracking it. Which is insane and that was like this really bizarre crazy experience spending a week on an island off the coast. People who work creating this eco village and it was this really interesting experience. I recorded five or six interviews and spliced them all together. So it was a complicated story to tell. But I found that those stories, while incredibly immersive and amazing, they’re just really hard to produce. And I’ve also found that sometimes, people got the same amount of value out of the ones that were highly produced as ones that were just two people sitting down having a conversation. So I’m like, “Okay, something to learn here.” And moving forward, I’m going to do kind of a combination of that. But it’ll be more long form interviews. And I think the key is just making sure that you’re talking with people who really have something valuable to say that really resonates with the audience.

Adam Finan: That’s it. The audience, like you’re saying, can learn something from or maybe doing something that the audience would like to do. Definitely a fan of the shorter ones too. I mean, you’ve probably noticed this. A lot of podcasts now might have these long form guest episodes, but they’re doing short, anywhere from three to 10 minutes, shorter episodes. It’s actually something I’m looking at doing and I’ve been planning out. It’s kind of like launching the podcast initially. It’s kind of a first solo. It’s a weird thing to do, but I want to do it. Like, Jesus, why haven’t I been doing this for the last two years? So you headed down to Colombia. So during this time, did you maintain your way of getting clients and the way of running a business through Upwork? Did you have the same client? Did you have to keep pitching? What does that look like throughout the process?

Sam Kern: I actually got kind of lucky. I landed that first client and I worked with him for four or five months. But when I came back to the US, I actually got approached by a friend of mine who runs a startup in Montana, actually. And he said, “Hey, you’re interested in working?” And I was like, “Yes, but only if it’s part time remote.” because I experienced what it was like to have that level of flexibility. And I already had this gig. I already knew I could freelance now. So it was unconventional for them to allow that, but they knew. They trusted me. And I think talented, reliable software engineers are hard to come by and so they’re like, “Sure.” And so that ended up being my gig. So I transitioned out of freelancing and then started working. Now I work 20 hours a week with them. And what I would say too is that for me, freelancing, it was so important to go through that process. And I tell people this, who are starting their careers or just interested in working online. I think that freelancing was so important because it made me realize that I had the capability of making money without having to get hired by a company. And I think that gives you a lot of creative confidence and confidence in yourself because you don’t feel like you need to jump from company to company and you know that worst case, like, now I know how to find work myself. So it was very empowering. And it gave me the confidence to demand those terms from the new company.

Adam Finan: Yeah. Because you’d lived that path and you realized that that was possible. You weren’t going to backtrack, if possible. They may have said no, but ultimately, you’d experienced that freedom. Like you’re saying, part time remote, and then you had that. You’re like, “What? I kind of like this. So no, I don’t really want to have to drive and go and sit in an office. So can we work it out this way?” I mean, I guess we have to mention the Coronavirus and the situation everyone’s in. I mean, a lot of companies who would have never done that. I mean, I know people whose companies would never let them work from home. Never, no. You can’t do your work from home. Well, guess what? They’re doing their work just fine from home. You just had a hang up. You’re old school. Or they didn’t trust their employees to do the work. Every report that comes out, every single better research that they do, the buffer end of year report on online and then remote work is really good. People are always more productive, always happier. You know what I mean? They work less, but they get the same amount of work done, if not more. It’s just consistently because they don’t have to deal with office politics, sometimes the toxic office environment, travelling to and from work, internal politics. They can just sit down, chill out, put on their favourite music, wear sweatpants, put on their comfy hoodie. They don’t need to worry about what to look like. I haven’t shaved. I’ll shower later. Whatever. Just get your bloody work done and then crack on and have the day to yourself. And when you can go out and about, go everywhere and everything is obviously a lot nicer. Like I say, some people who’ve had to work remotely now, they’re like, “Oh, man. How do you do this, man? This sucks. You’re at home all day.” I’m like, “It’s not normally like that.” Normally, you go out. You go to a coffee shop, and do an hour or two there, and come back for a while, and then go to the gym. This isn’t what working remotely is always like. Normally, it’s actually a lot better than this. Right now, I’m in lockdown in Ireland anyway. Everything’s closed, you can’t go anywhere, you can’t do anything. So I’m just cracking on. Record loads of podcasts, doing loads of silly website content and doing my shop, my work and everything’s good. 

So I guess what’s next? It’s funny, before the podcast, we’re chatting like I’m 33 now and you’re 23 and I just think it’s just funny because it’s like, you’ve got that vigour to hit the road and go travelling like I did when I was 10 years younger. 33 is not old but still, that 10 year difference is a big difference, you know? Compared to maybe what it was like then, it’s a lot easier now. The wireless come around a lot more to work and online. After the lockdowns are listed, do you think people are going to hit the roads and go back to places like Chiang Mai, Vietnam, Bali or do you think there’s probably going to be a big, maybe a period of time where they just don’t do that?

Sam Kern: It’s a great question and I think it’s Something that I’m planning to explore in my podcast in the next several weeks. So personally, from what I’ve heard from people who are in the travel industry, for instance, I think that people are going to continue to travel after this. And actually, when we can get into this. But I think that this COVID pandemic, I mean, it’s kind of blowing my mind just thinking about what it means moving forward in terms of work dependence and nomadism. Because before, the bottleneck was are you able to work remotely. And now, If you’re working, you’re probably working remotely, right? So it’s like, I don’t know, I think that the second and third three consequences of this are going to be massive. I do think that people are going to continue to travel after this. I’m not sure, but I expected there might be additional regulations. It might be harder to move between countries. So I think people are going to probably travel, but likely will travel a little bit more slowly. For me, I spent several months working for an experiential dinner company in San Diego. I was just down in Guatemala, organising a month-long coliving experience for location dependent entrepreneurs and creators. And that has obviously been put on hold because of this, but I really think all that stuff, that’s going tobe the future. The thing is that once people realize, “Oh, I can work remotely now.” And they realize that there are really incredible places in the world to see and the cost of living in certain countries is less. I think there’s going to be much more of an appetite for people to do that, to live abroad, to travel. There’s just going to be more of the capability for people to do that too.

Adam Finan: It’s a funny one because I have a lot of friends who are still out and on the road. There were quite a few of them in Bali when all this kicked off. And I’ve never seen people move as quickly to get out of Bali. They were like, “Get me out here now.” It’s funny, though. When all this happened, they were like, “No, no, no. I want to be somewhere that has a good health system.” or “I want to be somewhere like a little island in Indonesia.” Yeah, Bali is cool enough but shit hits the fan and if the hospitals are packed, I probably don’t want to be on a little island in Indonesia. You might want to be back in your home country or at least somewhere that you– The health system in Thailand is fantastic. It’s really good. It’s better than Ireland. Somewhere like that.

Can we chat a little about, you’ve mentioned a few things about coliving, right? This is something. My brother is the same age as you and I’m trying to get him excited about all this. He’s mad to go away travelling. I look at him and I just think, fairplay, go and do it, man. This is the sort of what we’re chatting about, coliving. So when you go away, often the thing that might stop people from going away is that they’re heading away on their own and maybe they’re just a bit worried or they don’t really know what to do. Is that why you explored coliving?

Sam Kern: For me, I love the location independent lifestyle, right? Because I love immersing myself in a new culture. I love going on trips. I love the feeling of exploring someplace new. But the problem that I saw almost immediately was, how do I continue to be surrounded by people that really helped me level up? Inspiring me, motivating me and giving me accountability. And also just making life and the work more joyful. That was the thing that I always felt was missing because you could definitely connect with digital nomads online. You could connect to Facebook groups and then meet up with people when you get to the place and that was always easy. But having that level of consistency, and really being in an environment that is pushing you and helping you accelerate, I wasn’t finding that. And I know actually, there’s a lot of coliving projects that exist, but I just decided I wanted to create my own. So that was the project I did in Guatemala. I believe so strongly that you’re the average of the people you spent time with. I think that’s one of the most important things to understand early on in your life. And that’s really what it’s about.

Adam Finan: And if you can’t be around them, listen to them on podcasts.

Sam Kern: That’s right.

Adam Finan: Seriously!

Sam Kern: Seriously. I agree with you. A friend of mine has this thing. I’m actually planning to have them on Radically Different soon. But he has this concept where it’s like, you can extend the idea of ‘you’re the average of the five people you spend time with’ to ‘you’re actually the average of the five minds you spend time with.’ So, in an online context, you could theoretically also just make sure that the ideas that are coming into your head from people are very carefully curated.

Adam Finan: Absolutely. Putting up filters, like if you’re reading junk news sites all the time and you’re watching trashy TV, fair enough, do it every now and then if you want to. But if you’re doing that every single day, it’s not going to fill your mind with the sort of stuff that makes you feel positive and want to progress and be better. Like you’re saying, by either hanging around with people or associating with people or even just listening to people that you admire or doing things that you would like to do, that can help you to be more proactive and be more positive. I mean, I definitely feel that way. I don’t listen to podcasts every day. I kind of binge on them. There’s certain ones I binge on every now and then. But I go in and then I just feel rejuvenated. Like, I’m ready to do this crap now. So that’s how I feel about it. Would you say the same? Let’s say now, you’re sitting at home, you can’t go. There’s no conferences. There’s no Digital Nomad meetups. There’s no internet market meetups. There’s no no meetups. Everything’s virtual. So if you can’t, or maybe you live in a place where maybe you’re into this and you think this way, but lots of other people don’t. I mean, I’ve been there. Your friends just are into different things, print construction or stay in one place. They’re not going anywhere. They’re not looking at online business. It doesn’t interest them in the slightest. So you need to create that environment in your life where you’re listening to the people who are living that life.

Sam Kern: Yeah, I think it’s insanely important. I mean, it’s been interesting with COVID, obviously, because I actually left Guatemala on the last flight out of the country. It was pretty similar to your friends fleeing Bali. It was a gametime decision and it happened very quickly. But I’ve been thinking more about what is actually the broader vision here. And the broader vision is that with a global network of people that you’re tapped into who all think in the same way. So, I kind of realized, like, oh, actually there’s a way to build something similar to a coliving experience in the online context. So that’s kind of the direction I’m headed now, too is thinking about maybe online first and then having offline experience in person.

If you can create a good community, there’s a few of them out there. If you can create a good online community with virtual summits and virtual meetups and the sort of things that are good with coliving. Like your accountability partners and the learning and everything. It is hard to recreate in a virtual space compared to personal contacts, you’re actually in the room with them. And I know people are travelling. It’s funny because when you talk about coliving, when I was in Thailand and going around places like that, it was always in hostels. And I was trying to work on the computer and everyone else was just drinking and smoking weed. 

Sam Kern: Right. Not the right environment.

Adam Finan: Not the right environment to get work done. It was a fun environment.

Sam Kern: Sure. Sure.

Adam Finan: But if you’re trying to be productive. You have deadlines for projects and it’s not exactly ideal. People won’t give a toss. They all just do their own thing and wake you up at all hours and everything. Coliving is different. This is where I love the idea. If you want to go travelling you want to be in a cool environment, hanging around with good people but not have that hostile experience, coliving can do that. There are networks of them across the world. There’s lots of different places. I interviewed a co-work in Bansko recently, which is in Bulgaria.

Sam Kern: I listened to that episode, actually. It’s great.

Adam Finan: Yeah. In Las Palmas, Gran Canaria that’s another really good one too. I like to look at that one, Las Palmas, Gran Vanaria. They’re springing up everywhere and for good reason. They provide a solution, especially for the solo traveller. Maybe you’re heading away on your own and you’re a little bit uncertain about it. It helps it put you in an environment, a good environmental, positive, encouraging environment with other entrepreneurs. 

Sam Kern: A theme that I’ve kind of realized with something like Digital Nomadism and location dependence and remote work is you have to be extremely intentional about the people you spend time with, where you are and how you’re spending your time. And I think coliving is sort of like the extreme example of that. It’s like ‘choose your community’, right? It’s like, choose the country you want to be in. Choose how you allocate your work hours. If you’re not in an office, you have to be setting your own hours and have some discipline around that. And same thing with coliving, right? It’s like who are the people you want to be surrounded by? Before, we sort of grew up in a place, we joined a company and we’re sort of in that environment. And now, you just have to be a little bit more proactive about your environment.

Adam Finan: For sure, man. I believe that too. And it’s an element of personal responsibility there too. If you want to do this thing, and all the people who are around you either aren’t into it or aren’t encouraging about it, then don’t screw them. You don’t need to listen to them. You make your own part. So if you’re listening to this and maybe you’re not in an environment that is encouraging for you working online when you’re going travelling, that doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. You just need to associate yourself with communities online and in person who can help you achieve that dream. But also, you need skills or services that you can sell. Like, you’re a software engineer. I’ve been a marketer now for eight years, doing SEO, all sorts of stuff. You need that skill. Whatever it is, you got to hone in and figure a way to either sell it. Or you have a product like the last episode. We got two episodes to go before this with ClickLoveGrow where she sells courses online, which is a fabulous business model if you can make that work for yourself. 

We’re just coming towards the end of the episode, Sam. How would you end this now? It’s a funny time for digital nomads for everybody. Travels are halted, but the online world has never thrived as much as it is right now. How would you end this podcast? 

Sam Kern: I think I can go back to, I just did a TEDx Talk and my message in the TEDx Talk is really that I think we think about Digital Nomadism as being all about travel. But for me, it’s really about freedom. It’s about freedom to pursue your curiosity. And I just think that as a society, as a culture, we need to recreate the space in our lives to be able to pursue our curiosity to discover the things that light us up and then pursue them. For me, I discovered podcasting because I had the free time and the location independence to be traveling and creating a podcast. And I’ve just been doing that over the past year. I took a pause in the podcast because I was pursuing my curiosity in different ways. The coliving project, that’s an enormous amount of work that I was right to do. Once again, I’m doing it because I had the time and the resources to make it happen. So what I would say is I think this time right now with the COVID pandemic is a fabulous time to be thinking about, am I really doing the thing right now that lights me up? Is this path that I chose and really one that I’ve chosen? And if it’s not, then I think this is an awesome time to really embrace remote work as a means of maybe discovering that. So that would be my message. Really encouraging people to recreate that space so that they can pursue the things that light them up. I think it makes for a better life and it makes for a better world, in a way. I finished my TEDx Talk like this. It’s like, I want to live in a world where everyone’s free to do the things that are sort of like their highest purpose because then everyone is feeling fulfilled and more empathetic and creating more value and it’s just the better place to be.

Adam Finan: You put it beautifully. The freedom to pursue your curiosity. I love that. Especially in the online world and with this online context, you might get really into something. Like you’re saying, podcast, or SEO, or writing and you pursue that thing. And you love the pursuit of it. The work doesn’t feel like work because you actually just enjoy doing it. And like you’re saying as well, what is success for you? Because it’s different for everybody. It’s different. If you’re young and single and you want to hit that road, that’s your game. If you’re older, and you want to be more celled, you have a family. Everybody is different. Your priorities may be different. Or maybe you’re looking after your family. You just want to be close to your family. Some people are like that. So it’s about what success is for you. But having, like you’re saying, the freedom to pursue your curiosities, the things that light you up, and the things you enjoy doing. You don’t feel like, “Oh, man. I hate this.” There’s always going to be a little element of that.

Sam Kern: For sure.

Adam Finan: Because no matter what you’re doing, it’s work. Not every minute of it is rosy, but ultimately, you enjoy those little challenges because you actually like the work that you’re doing. I think you ended it perfectly there. Thank you, Sam. Thank you for joining us. Thank you to the listeners as well for tuning in. And where can people find you if they want to get in touch, Sam?

Sam Kern: The podcast is called Radically Different. You can find it on Apple podcasts or anywhere that you listen to podcasts normally. And then the website is radicallydifferentpodcast.com. And you can find me on Instagram and Facebook @radicallydifferentpodcast. And feel free to reach out. Send a message. I respond often with a lot of voice notes. So just prepare for that.

Adam Finan: I do the same. It’s quicker than typing.

Sam Kern: Yeah. I’m kind of an audio guy.

Adam Finan: For sure. In case we haven’t guessed. Thank you. Okay, take care, Sam. I wish you all the best. 

Sam Kern: Thanks a lot, Adam.