EP60 – Hiring A Virtual Assistant From The Philippines with John Jonas – OnlineJobs.ph

Transcription:

Adam Finan: Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Digital Nomad Podcast. Today, we have John Jonas joining us from OnlineJobs.ph. Hello, John.

John Jonas: Hey, thanks for having me.

Adam Finan: Thanks for coming on, John. Onlinejobs.ph is very well known in the online community. So can you tell us a little bit about who you are and why you started that business?

John Jonas: Yeah. Where do you want me to start?

Adam Finan: So, onlinejobs.ph, as far as I understand, started around 2007. So maybe just give a little bit of context of what you were doing before and why you started.

John Jonas: Yeah. So, I am a terrible employee. I graduated from college in 2003. I had my first job after that in 2004. And I’m just not cut out to be an employee. The incentive structure didn’t work for me. If I did good work, I got paid the same. If I did bad work, I got paid the same. None of it really matters, right? So my only goal when I had that job was to quit the job so I could work on my own and work from home. And it took me eight months to do that, to have something that was making a little bit of money online, to where I could say, “Okay, I’m going to try this. I’m going to quit and work online.” That was 2004. So from there, I realised, “Yeah, this is what I thought it was.” I thought this was like, I can make money online, and everything’s automated, and you don’t have to work very much. And you just make a lot of money. And obviously, that’s not how it works. And so I was working 50 or 60 hours a week. And I tried outsourcing a couple things. And it just was crappy. And I tried Elance, which has turned into Upwork today, and it was fine. But it just dumped all of the burden on me. The work they did, all the burden came on to me. And we could talk about that a little bit. I tried hiring people locally, and the first thing they did was quit, because they realised, “Oh, you’re making money online? Like, this is what everybody wants. I’m going to do this on my own.” So that didn’t work for me. I tried hiring people in India. And that didn’t work either. I got a really good tip to hire someone in the Philippines and where I can hire someone in the Philippines, and I didn’t do it because it was like, you know, I’ve tried this outsourcing thing and it’s a headache, it sucks. And I don’t know if I can keep someone busy full time, which was not an option I had at the time, because this guy gave me a reference to this agency. And I don’t know if they can do good work. I don’t know if we can find talented people. I just didn’t know. And I didn’t do it for a couple months. And finally, I was like, “You know, it doesn’t really matter. I have to try this. I can’t keep doing what I’m doing. It’s just not working. I’m working too much.” So I ended up hiring this guy. And it was the most liberating experience in my life. His full time job was doing anything I asked him to do. And I could teach him to do things that I knew how to do that I was doing the business. All of a sudden, those things were off of my plate, and he was doing them. So this is 2005, late 2005 when I hired the first person. I had another person or two in 2006. And people started asking, like, “How are you doing this? How are you hiring these people? What’s going on?” Kind of like what we’re doing right now, right? And I was in a Mastermind group, and there were 15 of us, we met weekly, and every single week, this is where the conversation went. And I was like, “Guys, I’ve explained this 10 times already.” So I put together an audio. This is like 2006, 2007 and like, talk to all through this and was like, “Here’s everything I know.”, which isn’t very much. Because, you know, I didn’t like, set out to be an expert in those. I didn’t know. I put the audio out there and it kind of exploded. People just wanted to hear it. People wanted to know. So, like 2007, 2008, I decided finding people was really hard. I went to recruit someone myself. And I went to this agency, because it’s the only option and was like, “I want a content writer.” They were like, “Well, do you want a webmaster or a programmer?” I was like, “No, no. I want a content writer.” “But, do you want a webmaster or a programmer?” Because that’s all they do, webmaster or a programmer. And I was like, “Fine. I’ll take a webmaster.” And I started thinking about it, like, “What if I started my own job board where I could post a job, I could maybe get a couple of hundred Filipino profiles in there. I could recruit from them on my own. I went back to the agency, I was like, “I want a programmer. And so I got and hired a programmer, and we built the system. We built onlinejobs.ph.

 Adam Finan: That’s ironic, isn’t it? Because that ends up competing with them. They could have done it themselves, but instead, they provided the platform for you to hire the person for you. 

John Jonas: So we had a couple of hundred profiles put up in the first month. I had no clue that the demand would be so high in the Philippines. And then I was also talking about it in the US or on phone calls run on time with webinars. And so I had employers around the world looking to hire and so it just exploded. I think we have about 1.5 million profiles on OnlineJobs today.

 Adam Finan: It’s impressive. I just want to just highlight it here, I’ve never seen anybody else do it. You have this ID proof thing. That’s how you know you’re hiring a real person. That’s not a fake account. This person basically uploaded their ID or proof of address or something. I’m not too sure, but you have an ID proof score so you can validate that it’s real people. I thought that was very unique about yourselves and what you do. That was obviously factored in early onto the process. That’s cool. That’s very unique to your business.

John Jonas: It was something that like, I’ve looked at thousands and thousands of profiles over the years and you look at stuff so much, you start to recognise patterns. And I was like, “Oh, I can tell this guy’s a scammer, right here.” Without talking to him about anything, I just know. And I was like, “You know what, I see these patterns, and they’re recognisable. They’re machine recognisable.” So we put together this big, big algorithm that would help figure it out. Since then, we have expanded. My team in the Philippines is always like, “Hey, we need to do more for the Filipino people. We need to do more for their accounts.” And I’m like, “I’m sorry, no.” The only thing that matters here is, do employers have a good experience? Because if employers have a good experience, they’re gonna bring jobs. Filipino people are gonna sign up. If there are jobs, they’re going to sign up. If there’s no jobs, who cares? If people aren’t having a good experience, if you’re not finding good people, or if you’re finding scammers, or whatever, so our focus has always been to create a good experience for the employers because the rest of it will follow. We actually make it harder today for people in the Philippines to sign up. We forced them to verify, upload a government ID, verify your physical address, show us a picture of yourself and your government ID where we can recognise the two are the same. We do quite a bit towards human verifying.

Adam Finan: Which then creates a platform like you’re saying where people trust to go, rather than, because nowadays, it only takes a few YouTube videos for people to just have a goal to like, “I went on this platform and I got scammed.” and then it’s all a big problem. So I can see where you’re coming from. But on the flip side, I actually made a note to mention to you that you’ve had a huge positive impact on the region. If you were to tally up the amount of work generated through, the amount of employment that you’ve created, the amount of money that you’ve basically brought into the country, I would say you’ve had a huge impact, over the years, on people’s lives in the region. So I want to give that a call out loud. I think that’s very impressive.You actually had an impact.

 John Jonas: Thanks. I don’t have exact numbers, because with online jobs, we don’t track stuff. Not that we don’t track, it’s that I built what I wanted, I didn’t want to have a middleman in between. So when you go on, you post your job, and you’re communicating with people like, immediately off of the platform. We don’t force it on the platform at all. You’re in your own gmail account, or whatever. So if you hire someone, I don’t necessarily know if you hire them. You may come back and mark that person’s profile as hired. But my best guess is we’ve had hundreds of thousands of jobs created.

Adam Finan: I mean, right now, there’s 30,000. I checked just before this. There’s 30,000 active jobs, I believe, on the platform right now. You have unique pricing models. Fiverr is like a gig economy. You have a very specific service for a very specific price in Fiverr, I think 20%. Upwork, you can hire long-term players from all over the world, or one-off. Your pricing is, you charge the employer. So for me, to hire and to communicate, I pay a monthly fee of a one-off fee if I just want to hire one person. I do it within a month, I can cancel the contract. And that’s kind of like a reverse psychology of it because you’re [Inaudible 09:02] once again back on, creating a good experience. You’re not taking money out of the people’s pockets who’re doing the work who are then resentful of you taking 20% of the gig. It’s kind of a reverse mentality versus what would be normal or common in these platforms. Can you speak to that a little bit?

John Jonas: Yeah, it’s more profitable to take a percentage of people’s salaries.

Adam Finan: I imagine it would be, yeah.

John Jonas: And it’s more expensive. People are like, “Oh, I can do this for free in Upwork.” Like, “No, you can’t.” You can get that person for $3 an hour here, or you can get it for $6 an hour there. It’s not free to pay 20% to 40% of the salary, of a payment that goes to the business, not to the worker.

Adam Finan: People factor that in as well. If you’re on those platforms, you increase your price to factor in the buffer, whereas, like you’re saying, in a platform like this, you’re dealing directly with them so they don’t want to factor in that there’s 20% going to the middleman. Therefore, you should, in theory, get it for a less price, versus if you’re hiring on a different platform.

John Jonas: Yeah, and it’s more than just that, too. At OnlineJobs, one of the things that we’ve always focused on — Let me take a step back here. Contract work inhibits small business. Paying someone hourly prevents you from growing the way that you think you’re going to. Nobody realises this. It took me years to realise this, but if you hire someone on a contract basis, you do all the work to recruit them to make sure to vet them, to bring them in, whatever. You still have to bring them on board to get them into your business. There’s still work to be done there. They do the work, you pay them, they’re gone. The next time you need something like that or something similar, or you need to modify it, you have to do the whole process over again. It’s called turnover. 100% turnover. And that’s built-in to the Upwork, Fiverr model. Like, we’re guaranteeing turnover because that’s how they work. Like for the freelancers, you have to get a job, do the work, get  paid, get a review so that you can get another job, and get paid more. Get another review so you can get another job then get paid more, right? Like that’s the whole point of it. And we’ve always focused on, “No. Let’s build long term businesses. Let’s hire someone that is full time, stable, long term, or maybe part time but stable and long term.” And so when you talk about, “Oh yeah, it’s $3 an hour at OnlineJobs.ph, or it’s $6 an hour at Upwork”, it’s not just that they’re taking part of it. It’s that person, the freelancer in the Philippines, they are concerned about feeding their family and they’re trying to get a gig. And when that gig is up, they make $6 an hour for 14 hours. Now they have to go back and get another gig and it’s hard. 

Adam Finan: Yeah, that’s the graph. That’s the freelancer graph. It’s not a great place to be in. Because like you’re saying, there’s no stability. There’s no stability in your life. You’re doing the work but then you’re also chasing work. I’ve been there years ago. I was a freelance writer. That’s how I got started online. Actually, my first client was probably somebody you’re familiar with, Chris Ducket, who has virtual freedom. And he had a big agency in the Philippines. I don’t even know if he still does but he was actually my first client. I was writing content for his blog. Ironic, you know what I mean? But when his work was done, I had to go back chasing. Back on the outreach in sales. There’s a lot to be said for having stable and reliable income for you and your family. I’d like to touch on, you kind of loop into something I would like to just touch on, is COVID has had a big impact on the world. And the Philippines have very strict rules in everything else and the president definitely makes a name for himself for how he is. But outside of that, tourism, hospitality, hugely impacted. So those industries, because you don’t have the normal millions of tourists flowing in. Have you seen a lot more people looking online, trying to transfer those skills that they would have and become virtual assistants or enter into the online jobs market versus the domestic jobs market?

John Jonas: In April and May of last year, 2020, we saw a three times increase overnight in the number of Filipinos signing up. April and May, let’s see. March and April, from employers last year, we saw a slight dip. The world freaked out. Everybody shut down. Everybody stopped doing anything. And then in May, June, July, August, September, we saw massive growth in employers realising, “Oh no, I’m gonna work. We’re just gonna hire virtual workers now.” So we saw huge growth in people turning to the Philippines to hire virtual workers.

Adam Finan: That’s awesome. I follow a bunch of people. There was a group in Bali, FeedBali, they’re on Instagram. And they’re very much helping because the governments are helping them. It’s not like in Ireland where the governments just throw money at you, and in the UK. I don’t know what America is likem, but I know there’s stimulus in all this stuff. In those countries, I don’t think they throw money at you. It’s very much like, “You’re on your own. Go figure it out.” And that’s what this work ethic comes in. And in the Philippines, people have to really, what are they going to do? You can’t go to work, you can’t go to places. All  you can do is pull out your phone or your computer and try and make it happen there.

John Jonas: My team sent me quite a few things, like people were saying, “We’re not going to die from COVID. We’re gonna die from starvation.” Because the government said, “No, you can’t leave.” They put police in the streets. If you’re out of your house, they will arrest you. But then they said, “We’re gonna feed you too.” And then the food never came. People were allowed to leave the house once a week to go to the grocery store, but then there’s no food there, whatever. So we ended up sending a lot of money to our people around the country and said, like, “Hey, go do what you can to help whoever around you, that you can, that are struggling.” People go from making a little bit of money to making zero money overnight. And there’s no recourse. They can’t feed their families. My team, or anybody working virtually, still kept up, which was great. So we were able to–

Adam Finan: Can still make money. Yeah, exactly. I just think it’s a massive shift. My assumption was that a lot of people might have to pay for it, like almost like they just have to look for alternatives and it might have turned to things like OnlineJobs.ph. Okay. So let’s get into a little bit about hiring somebody. So how would hiring somebody from, let’s say, the Philippines, differ from maybe the US or EU from a cultural standpoint? Are there any particular nuances that will stand out that somebody should be aware of if they’re going to OnlineJobs.ph to hire somebody?

John Jonas: The first question that people always have in hiring is, can I actually find someone good? Does that exist? Can I find good talent? And let me just give you a couple examples. So on my team, I have programmers who are like, they worked for IBM, or they’re just really, really talented. So yes, you can find really good programmers. I have good designers, I have really good content writers. In fact, if you look at OnlineJobs.ph, it’s all designed and programmed by people in the Philippines. If you look at the blog on OnlineJobs.ph, it’s mostly written in the Philippines. My personal newsletter that I send out gets written by someone on my team in the Philippines, and then I usually edit or just give a final word. So you can find really talented people. I have a friend that hired an investment banking analyst out of the Philippines. He said, “This guy is a $250,000 a year person in the US, and I’m paying him $1500 a month. It’s amazing the talent you can find. So if you want to go find someone, you want me to kind of go through my process of  how I find someone good?

Adam Finan: Absolutely. Yeah. And probably touches on onevaaway.com as well. We can reference that too, because I know you have your own steps and process and framework. So yeah, absolutely.

John Jonas: I’ll cover this right now just briefly. At onevaaway.com, I cover this in detail. So you get everything. You’ll get my thoughts, my brain as I do this. I’ve done this dozens of times, and came up with a really good process. So the problem that most people find when they go to recruit is they don’t have time. You’re just too busy to recruit someone. You think this is gonna take a whole bunch of time because you got to post a job, and then you got to interview all these people. You don’t have to do any of that. Not that you don’t have to do any of it, but here’s what I do. Number one, define your role that you’re going to hire someone for. And to me, the first person you should hire should be someone to do something that you know how to do. So people are always like, “Oh, I’m good at social media. I don’t know how to build a website. So I’m going to hire someone to build a website.” And that’s fine. But a better way to do it is to hire someone to do social media for you. So you get that off of your plate. So you stop working 60 hours a week. And then you can, once you have that done, you’re so much more effective at managing the build-a-website thing. So the first person to hire is to hire someone to do something you know how to do. You can teach them well, you have good expectations for it, you can give feedback for it, you know what the final product looks like. It’s just a better experience. So define the role that you’re going to hire for. Go to OnlineJobs.ph and search for the skills that you need. Super simple. You’re going to spend 10 minutes looking at profiles, and this will be really eye opening if you’ve never done it before. So you’re going to just look and like, search your skills, and start clicking on profiles and see what skills exist out there? What skills can I find in people? And then how much are they looking to make? What do they say about it? Are they looking to make $400 a month for full time work? Are they looking to make $800 a month for full time work? What’s the price range in this skill that I’m looking for? From there, you’re gonna go post your job. Pretty simple. You write your job title and your job description, you say how much it is, you select a couple skills. You’re done. Super simple. You don’t have to pay anything yet. This is all free. At this point, you’re going to get a whole bunch of job applications, depending on who it is, or depending on the role, like if you post a general VA, like, “I just want a general virtual system. I want a data entry person.” You’re going to get 300 job applications overnight. It’s way too much. And we’re working on cutting it down because people just get overwhelmed. So let me give you a piece of advice here. When you post a job, in the job description somewhere. Ask them to include a key word in the title of their application.

Adam Finan: I’ve always done that. If they don’t do that, automatic disqualification. You’d be amazed how many people don’t do that. They just paste the same default copy and paste or text expander. They’re just applying. They’re just trying to get the numbers out, apply to as many jobs that’s a VA. Look, you can’t blame them for it. But as an employer, attention to detail is important. So if you didn’t say the word and the ones that are like keywords, it will shortlist you. You didn’t pay attention.

John Jonas: Right. No keyword, you didn’t include the keyword in the title, done, gone. I won’t even open it. So here’s the thing. If you get 20 applications total, great. Respond to them all. If you get 200 applications, you’re going to very briefly look at them. And anything wrong, any little slight red flag, just ignore it. You’re only going to respond to the best ones because you just can’t interview 200 people. From here, here’s where my process differs from most people. And just so you know, up to this point, you haven’t paid for anything. Now’s the time you pay OnlineJobs.ph. So you can post your job for free, you can look at resumes for free, you can get job applications and see the applications for free. You just don’t get any contact information for any people until you’ve paid. That’s how we make money. So it’s $69 or $99 for a month of access. So you pay, now you can respond to people. Here’s where I differ from most people. I don’t do a Skype interview now. I send them 1, 2, 3, 4 questions. And I’ll send the same 1, 2, 3, 4 questions to 25 different people. I’ll respond to them and send the same questions, and then I’ll wait for them to respond. And then I’ll send 1, 2, 3, 4 more questions. And I’ll do this 5, 6, 7, 8 times, where I’m just sending them questions and looking at their responses. And there’s a bunch of reasons why. So number one, I want to see their attention to detail. If I asked you three questions in an email and you only answered two of them, well, the chances of me assigning you three tasks and you only doing two of them is really high. And that doesn’t work for me. Or I get to see your English. I can see your English on your profile, that’s cool. But maybe your friend helped you edit your profile. They’re not going to help you edit eight emails in three days. It’s just not reasonable. And I get to see how good your English actually is. I can see your personality. That’s a big deal because you’re not a robot, we’re gonna work together. We have to interact and how your profile or how your personality interacts with my personality is a big deal. I get to see how quickly you respond. If it takes you three days to respond during the interview process, well, after I hire you, it’s gonna take you three days, and that doesn’t work for me. By doing this in email, number one, me, sending an email takes me less than one minute. Getting on a Skype video takes 30 minutes. 30 minutes gone, right? And instead, I’ve interviewed 20 people in those 30 minutes. Here’s the other side of it. People in the Philippines don’t want to do a Skype interview. They’re scared. Culturally, they’re shy, they’re scared, they’re embarrassed, whatever you want to call it. They don’t want to do a Skype interview until they trust you. And trust is a big deal. So we go into this thinking, I don’t know if I can trust this person. They’re thinking the same thing. I don’t know if I can trust this person or this employer. But their feelings are stronger than yours. So you have to do things to gain their trust. And that’s when you really create a rockstar worker. So if you do the interview process via email first and then at a Skype interview at the end like you’ve narrowed it down to two or three, you’ll find that people will drop out. You ask them four more questions, they’re like, “I’m out. I’m not doing this.” Or you’ll drop people out like, “Oh, this person is just not good.” And you’ll end up with a pretty good idea who you want to hire. As soon as you start to narrow it down by this, you can ask them to do a test. If it’s gonna take longer than 30 minutes, then I suggest you pay for the test. Filipinos are very scared about doing a bunch of work and not getting paid for it.

Adam Finan: Yeah, and I imagine stories they’ve heard or even the experiences that they’ve had. We’ll circle back that after, actually. I wouldn’t mind just clarifying how you approach contracts.

John Jonas: So you can have them to do a test. Like, do a writing test or a design test or do whatever it is that you want them to do. And when you’re ready to hire, you can say, “When can you start? I want to offer you a job. When can you start?” “I can start tomorrow.” “Sweet! Okay. I got work to do. Here’s your first task.” So you asked about contracts, right?

Adam Finan: Yeah. So I kind of like two questions, really. Because look, when you use other platforms, it’s all built into it. How do you pay somebody? And then when you start a new hire, that exact scenario that you spoke about, they don’t  want to do work and not get paid. What’s a typical timeframe? Would they work for a week and then you pay them? Or a day and then you pay them? For a month? How would that typically work with a new hire? What is your experience?

John Jonas: So when I start someone new, I pay them weekly for the first two months. I tell them, “Look, I’m gonna pay you weekly.” And I think weekly is a good reasonable amount of work for them to do without getting paid. Don’t ever pre pay for work. If the first person you hire says, “Sir, my laptop just broke. I needed a laptop.” Don’t do it. That’s a scam. We don’t see it very often anymore, but we used to see it. So pay after work is done. Don’t pay necessarily for the result, at least, I don’t recommend you do that with the Philippines. Pay for their time like they have worked for the week. You’re going to pay after the week. After a couple months and they trust you, then you can start paying weekly or monthly. Paying people is pretty easy. At OnlineJobs.ph, we have EZ-pay built in. We built the payment system that we wanted to have. That’s built in and easy and obvious. You could use Paypal, you could use Transferwise, you could use Western Union. Pay them however you want. We don’t really care

Adam Finan: But it’s just some countries have specific payment gateways that are more accepted. Even one of my viewers, she’s actually in Argentina and Paypal all the way. Paypal is their preference. I was just curious. So you’re saying there’s a variety of payment options. There’s not one necessarily that’s preferred. It could be any of the above, really.

John Jonas: Payoneer is what we use to build EZ-pay. We just push them on a couple of points so you get more if you pay through OnlineJobs via Payoneer. But PayPal, often, it will take five to seven days for them to get the money, which is super crappy. Sometimes, they’re not eating during that time. And then Paypal’s exchange rate is not good. When you’re making $500 a month and you lose $15 to Paypal, that sucks.

Adam Finan: Absolutely. I hear you. But also, just as an employer, listen to this. Be mindful of these things. There are a variety of options and hopefully go with what the person has preference for because you don’t want them to be waiting and paying loads of fees and all these things unnecessarily. There are alternative options. So I think as an employer, just be mindful of the preferences of the person who you’re working with.

John Jonas: Or just be mindful that it’s a human. You’re not hiring a robot. This is a human and they have families, and feelings, and desires, and needs, and wants, and problems. They’re gonna have problems. You’re gonna have problems as part of it. It’s amazing to hire a full time super talented person for $400, $600, $1200 a month. It’s not magic and you still have to work at it.

Adam Finan: I totally agree. I mean, everybody’s just humans. Everybody’s life is complex in their own ways. Even just the country in the location, the Philippines, can have issues with electricity and with the internet, it’s not that person’s fault. That’s a civil engineering construction country problem from time to time. It’s not their fault. I’m happy. I feel like we’ve covered a lot of different points here. So if people want to connect with you or learn more about OnlineJobs.ph, what’s the best way for them to do this?

John Jonas: I’m super available via email. If you have questions, if you go to OnlineJobs.ph, or onevaaway.com or johnjonas.com and you use the Contact link, and you say, this is for John, it’ll get to me. Obviously, it doesn’t come to me first. But everybody knows, all my people know, if they ask for me, send it straight to me and I will respond straight to you. You can get me on Facebook. I don’t know how you search for John Jonas or something. But I never log into Facebook. My team in the Philippines does all of my social posting. I create most of the content, probably, they create some, I don’t really know because I hate it. I hate social media.

Adam Finan: Yeah, I have to say I’m a man, I have just loved meeting. I dip out and then I go back in, and then I dip out, and I delete all the apps for a month or two. My VA is there and she’s replying to everybody and doing all the bits and postings, scheduling and in Canva making all this stuff, but I go in every now and then I’m like, “How many followers?” and if there’s anything important that [Inaudible 28:10] She’s on top of it. She’s good. But that’s what you’re saying, it gives you the freedom where I don’t feel sucked into that time of a world. Because I have the freedom that I can just dip in and out. We get business from it. And the podcast gets marketed and everything is good. Sounds like it’s the same for you. You have these filters, but you’re the owner of a business, a big successful business. You need to have filters before things get to you. That’s important.

John Jonas: Yeah. To me, this is about time. I’ve worked 15-17 hours a week now for 10 or 12 years. And that’s because my team in the Philippines does basically everything for me. And I set these boundaries. Like you said, you delete the apps. I haven’t had Facebook or Instagram on my phone in probably three years now. And I don’t miss it one dang bit. And yet I still have a big presence there. I think. I don’t really know.

Adam Finan: Your YouTube, I’ve seen you have a lot of videos, a lot of content, short snippets, really good, answering questions. So I definitely think if people want to know more about OnlineJobs.ph, your YouTube channel is a good place to look as well. It’s years worth of videos out there. And loads of new short ones, well-edited. Yeah, it’s cool.

John Jonas: And all I do is record. That’s it. I hit record on the phone. And then I upload it and I’m done. I don’t write descriptions. I don’t edit. I don’t upload I don’t URLs or I don’t do any of that.

Adam Finan: That’s the power of having a good virtual team. Yours are all in the Philippines so that’s awesome. John, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much for joining.

John Jonas: Yeah, thanks, Adam. It’s been good to be here. Thanks.

Adam Finan: Thank you. Okay, thanks for listening.